Curse

tmakinen · Nov 16, 2007, 12:00 PM // 12:00

I would trade my elemental sword for an additional toggle button that changed the hero/hench positioning between the normal and a dispersed formation, where each of them would keep a nearby range to each other.

Now if you had a set of programmable formation buttons each of which you could program by placing flags relative to your own position and the way you're facing, and the ability to either pin a formation to a place or let it follow you, keeping the relative distances and angles, working with H+H would suddenly become a small slice of heaven

CHunterX · Nov 16, 2007, 12:03 PM // 12:03

I'd like something along the lines of "Ranged Combat" in KoToR 2. Stand in one spot and don't move at all, only use Ranged magic or attacks.

Sha Noran · Nov 16, 2007, 12:04 PM // 12:04

I really have no idea how anyone fails with H+H. They never do anything that I don't let them do.

Cargan · Nov 16, 2007, 12:48 PM // 12:48

formation controls? being able to place your heroes individually gives you infinitely more control than generic formation buttons.

I keep all my heroes on guard, monks on passive. Never do I get a hench or hero running off to attack something that is out of range unless I have manually asked them to cast a skill. only problem is if the party is wiped out while you have asked a hero to use a skill they will run off to the target until they do so. so dedicated they are :P Same thing with res. if you ask a hero to res but another one does it first, the res will stay checked and they won't do anything else until you uncheck it. it would be nice if it checked for failed failed skill and classed it as the hero having used it.

Other than that, I don't have any problems. Could be that I've just gotten used to it and find micromanaging heroes just as easy as managing my own skills. You really have to get used to it fast if you're playing warrior or else your casters just follow you straight into the fray.

Alexandra-Sweet · Nov 16, 2007, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfwing

flags are completly and utterly useless...I don't see why anyone bothers to use them.

HFFFing ftw!

Tarkin · Nov 16, 2007, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfwing

And EVEN if you get the flags up the hero's and henchmen ignore them the second anything comes in range. Flag so they stay in the wards they run out anyway. Flag them so they are spread out they all run to a single point to fight. I ran intot his problem against the guy in shards of orr dungeon, I flaged them all 1-3 feet apart so they could still heal each other and such ran and grabbed the boss, came back and they were all standing on the exact same spot attacking the guy and sure enough wiped out all at once.

How are you supposed to use the flag when it's impossible to keep placing them and they ignore where you place them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Now if you had a set of programmable formation buttons each of which you could program by placing flags relative to your own position and the way you're facing, and the ability to either pin a formation to a place or let it follow you, keeping the relative distances and angles, working with H+H would suddenly become a small slice of heaven

How i flag my heros?

If foes have a huge ignore armor damage output i flag them in a half circle... and i call target in the primary target in dangerous order and release them...
i fear... spliter weapow... ...

or

I flag all them a bit away and and i run and take agroo (i am a ele(hero monk use SB on me(but i dont hold the agroo... it only to break the first foes spell wave))) because my "team" build dont fear melle...

Works wonders... i working in hard mode this days...

Heros need two new functions... >>spread<< to avoid AeO and >>hold togheter<< to help with wards... my heros run like stupid from foes outside wards... i hate this

Sorry my weak english...

Blackhawk · Nov 16, 2007, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHunterX

Something like this:

LOL

, although I use /wave when I'm holding a flag.

ValaOfTheFens · Nov 16, 2007, 05:10 PM // 17:10

I used to have this problem alot, especially with Zhed and Sosuke. I discovered the problem was that I had alot of skills that only dealt damage to adjacent foes and so they'd do their best to get adjacent.

Also, I know it makes things easier but don't lock targets for casters until you get somewhat close to your flag. Melonni and Koss usually wait until my aggro bubble touches them to act but Dunk and pals will Leeroy into a mob I'm pulling if I have a target locked on.

Henchmen are more of a problem than heroes. Stefan went off my mini map when I was doing Iron Mines the other day.

I wish monk henchies were on auto passive. Enemies don't take kindly to being staffed by a caster and I get tired of rezzing Alesia or Lina(Kihm is the smartest hench monk).

Mavrik · Nov 16, 2007, 05:26 PM // 17:26

I use flags all the time though usually the main flag for the whole group. Set them to guard so they don't run after you is all. I usually do this when venturing ahead to pull aggro or something.

unfortunatly my minions do not obey flags lol...

Ctb · Nov 16, 2007, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Especially my ele's love to chase enemies or fire off their spells at long range distance while i am just setting up the wards and traps ...

That's what happens to me too. My casters run forward to get in range to cast a spell, but the melee attackers won't because they would have to run farther to get into melee range. That puts my casters on the front line while Koss just stands back picking his nose X(

I got in the habit of flagging the entire group 1.5x the aggro radius behind me, then releasing the flag just after I pulled. Needless to say, on my non-tank characters this can get awfully tricky.

Quote:

Thing that gets me is that they'll kite out of defensive wards, but stand still in a meteor shower.

Or stand there wailing away at a drake with Sliver Armor up. That's always nice.

Quote:

I really have no idea how anyone fails with H+H. They never do anything that I don't let them do.

Then shut up and go find another thread to impart your genius wisdom in instead of trying to impress people here with your 1337 clicking skills. You have nothing to add to this one, so go away.

/ignored

Abedeus · Nov 16, 2007, 05:42 PM // 17:42

I just wish you could have something like in Spellforce (first chapter, dunno what about SF2):
You are a great hero and you have minions and sidekicks. You can arrange them as you wanted, for example in a two lined formation or in a circle/half circle - they protect most vulnerable creature or melee protect rangers who protect mages. This way you aggro monsters and they crash on your melee, rangers/paragons use attacks to help with killing monsters and monks, ritualists and so on are in the middle, healing and aiding other people.

Man, that would be sweet.

Quaker · Nov 16, 2007, 05:44 PM // 17:44

The flags have an "agro bubble" around them, much the same as your own agro bubble. The H&H only stand right by the flag when they are not engaged in doing something. This agro-bubble area can be thought of as their "post".
If the heroes are set to "fight" they will leave their post if required to attack an enemy (but return when the attack is over)
If they are set to "guard" they will only go as far as the edge of their post to attack.
If they are set to "avoid combat", they will still go to the edge of their post to use non-attack skills. For example, a Monk hero set to avoid, will still go to the edge of their "post" (agro-bubble) to heal someone.

In your example, you said you placed the flags 2 or 3 feet apart. This would mean that the agro-bubbles (posts) overlapped, so when the H&H went to attack, they could easily end up in the same spot.
When placing your flags you need to allow for this agro-bubble by setting them farther away than the spot you want. This may mean you may want to flag the monks an aggro-bubble behind the rest, for example

Tarkin · Nov 16, 2007, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by ValaOfTheFens

I used to have this problem alot, especially with Zhed and Sosuke. I discovered the problem was that I had alot of skills that only dealt damage to adjacent foes and so they'd do their best to get adjacent.

Also, I know it makes things easier but don't lock targets for casters until you get somewhat close to your flag. Melonni and Koss usually wait until my aggro bubble touches them to act but Dunk and pals will Leeroy into a mob I'm pulling if I have a target locked on.

Henchmen are more of a problem than heroes. Stefan went off my mini map when I was doing Iron Mines the other day.

I wish monk henchies were on auto passive. Enemies don't take kindly to being staffed by a caster and I get tired of rezzing Alesia or Lina(Kihm is the smartest hench monk).

True... i never use touch or half range skills in monks because they run to "touch" the tank...
Deal with heros and henchs are a art... not wrong with them but you need some exp... with them...

Cargan · Nov 16, 2007, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by ValaOfTheFens

I used to have this problem alot, especially with Zhed and Sosuke. I discovered the problem was that I had alot of skills that only dealt damage to adjacent foes and so they'd do their best to get adjacent.

Also, I know it makes things easier but don't lock targets for casters until you get somewhat close to your flag. Melonni and Koss usually wait until my aggro bubble touches them to act but Dunk and pals will Leeroy into a mob I'm pulling if I have a target locked on.

Henchmen are more of a problem than heroes. Stefan went off my mini map when I was doing Iron Mines the other day.

I wish monk henchies were on auto passive. Enemies don't take kindly to being staffed by a caster and I get tired of rezzing Alesia or Lina(Kihm is the smartest hench monk).

Hehe, I had the same with my ele's when I gave them skills that required them to be close to an enemy. instead of just using it when an enemy came to the back line they'd run into the front to cast it then stay there casting for a few seconds 'til they die. it's just a matter of adjusting a build you would be able to use yourself to something more foolproof and I think the majority of people who use them are able to do this successfully (although there are countless people who just fail miserably then come on here to complain it's broken).

Also agreed about the enemies not taking kindly to monks wanding them. Hero monks get attacked a lot less when they're on passive.

Quite often I notice that when heroes are pinned in one place while you run on, then you unpin them when they're nearer the edge of the compass, they run the wrong way for a bit before turning around and coming back to you. Maybe because the Heroes line of sight is shorter they just find it harder to find you? :| To be honest, I do the same if I end up out of compass range of someone and try to find them. I run one way to see if I can see them, and if I don't I run the other way. Surely heroes are not supposed to be so human-like? :P

You can't see me · Nov 16, 2007, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Venture Range for flags needs to be within the heros personal agro range around the flag stand.

That's all that needs to be done.

The Way Out · Nov 16, 2007, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Like brian, I use the V pattern... which rocks.... however, I only do this with three prot monks, because they don't get wiped as easily due to AoE... and if there is AI spiking... you don't have to worry... one of the monks all of a sudden become a tank (lmao)

wolfwing · Nov 16, 2007, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Well the delay I'm talking about isn't the you hold your mouse and move it I'm talking about F5 to select a flag and the second delay between me hitting F5 and the flag apeparing to be placed, if I hit fast, like I tend to do in a chaotic battle I just end up running to the wrong spot with the flag uselessly still waiting to be placed.

And something I've been noticing the last few days is that some hero's/henchmen lag way behind the party, or I will avoid a group and the hero's will attack something out of their agro bubble. Had this yesterday on way to Arachni Haunt. I was standing at edge of the group opening a chest, there was a group just outside my bubble but no where near enough to agro, suddenly I see a wand/staff attack fly OVER my head from the direction opposite of the enemies and engage them, now they weren't agroing me so how the heck did a hero that was further away from them then me suddenly decide to attack. Oh and I alwys have them on guard.

Oh and another annoying thing is that they won't always move right away. I've had this happen tons of times fighting Duncan where I see spirit rift popping up I flag the group to move, and everyone but Dunkaro or a monk moves out of the range and Dunkaro stays there casting what ever spell he wants then moves JUST too late to get out of range and down he goes. I've seen this countless times. They don't move when you want them too, and they move when you don't.

wolfwing · Nov 16, 2007, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Is it me or has Anet screwed with the AI again, fighting all the minotaurs and such in large groups used to be easy, now I'm wasting the entire fight chasing after every single stupid enemy because the hero's are too busy fleeing at the slightest attack to them in melee to either cast spells or keep the enemies in the range of the spells.

pumpkin pie · Nov 17, 2007, 04:03 AM // 04:03

tips: must always use flags with the proper combat mode

if you have them on fight mode they will run away when there are enemies near by.

description of fight combat mode
Fight: The hero will attack any enemy in combat with the party and any called targets. The hero will charge ahead of the party if necessary

Guard: The hero will attack any targets that the party is attacking, but only if it doesn't require the hero to leave the guarded area, ie the player controlling the hero or the flag.

Avoid Combat: The hero will never attack and tries to avoid enemies. The hero will use non-attacking spells as usual

arcanemacabre · Nov 17, 2007, 05:27 AM // 05:27

I don't really have any problems with the heroes not obeying flags. However, I definitely hate that 2-3 second delay with the keybound "flag all." I have mine set to the Tab key, since my cycle target is assigned to one of my many mouse buttons. Yeah, there is definitely a delay, and it is quite aggrevating at times, especially if you need to get heroes moving quickly, such as in Oola's Lab with the turrets.